See title. I just finished “Notes of a Dirty Old Man” and I was astounded by his lack of self awareness whilst also maintaining a snobby pretentiousness.
He isn’t the modern day Diogenes. He’s a grumpy woman hating alcoholic, and it’s about time pretentious people stopped to read one of his books before quoting him.
It isn’t as if his gimmick is new. Purposefully crass language has been around far before Bukowski has.
Had to vent. If you do like Bukowski, I will hear you out in the comments but I truly cannot understand his appeal.
Is he literally anyone’s favourite writer?
by britishbrandy
32 Comments
Not my favorite but I like the unfiltered way he talks and the sick, sad and dirty writing, definitely a misogynist and a hard to read for women.
I’m a big fan of his poetry, but never read his novels. I read it for the way he describes self-loathing, which is a theme I think runs through most of it. I don’t read his books because I think self-loathing is best kept to small, infrequent doses.
Post Office and Ham on Rye were the best of his novels. You’re right that he is a piece of shit human being and anyone who models themselves on him is treading on shitty shitty shitground.
I mean…”Notes of a Dirty Old Man” is like a collection of newspaper articles, isn’t it? He’s famous for being a good poet, not a great prose writer. This is a *little* like saying you don’t think John Lennon was all that because you once saw him playing soccer and he wasn’t particularly impressive at it. I don’t know that anyone thinks Bukowski was a great essayist.
I think he’s a really good poet, a decent novelist, and a below-average essayist. I wouldn’t call him great at any of them. And he definitely wasn’t a person I would have wanted to hang out with. But for me, if you’re gonna judge his work, at least look at his poetry, which is his primary medium/talent.
How is a dirty old man pretentious? He’s just writing his personal experience losing money and fuckimg other alcoholics. It isn’t sexy and it isn’t glamorous, but it is real.
The one thing I can recall is his sickening levels of grumpiness, and then an out-of-the-blue lovely and tender passage. I feel I know a lot of people like that, who have the capacity for great ugliness and great beauty simultaneously. I don’t enjoy Bulowski’s writing anymore, but it made an impact by how honest it feels. This, compared to someone who’s carefully created public persona and writings are desperately tame and “aren’t I good?” but who are so full of shit and Gross through and through.
Also why call him overrated if you’ve only read one of his works that is just a compilation of his newspaper columns?
He’s one of my favourites (as a poet, don’t know his writing very well).
I always took his depiction of himself to be some degree of character/caricature. You’re supposed to find him disgusting.
And the vulgarity isn’t just for shock value. He’s depicting the ugliness he sees in the world, and in himself, so vulgar language/imagery is effective.
He has a lot of good poems about the misery, beauty, and absurdity, of existence:
[Beasts Bounding Through Time](https://allpoetry.com/poem/10257717-Beasts-Bounding-Through-Time-by-Charles-Bukowski)
[The History Of One Tough Motherfucker](https://allpoetry.com/The-History-Of-One-Tough-Motherfucker)
I think the single greatest disservice Black Sparrow did to Bukowski is posthumously publishing just about everything he ever wrote. They published 20 collections after he died. The revised NFADOM is on that list .(edited.)
I really like a few of his novels (Ham on Rye comes to mind) but think he’s a better poet than novelist.
No way, he’s pretentious! Bukowski is someone who can be as honest as a human can be. Yes, his personal experiences, at times, may not look decent or rational or anything close to being a regular human being, but that doesn’t make him pretentious. That said, he’s not for everyone. He wrote for the gutter and the underground masses. You don’t need to like his views or even understand them, but that doesn’t make him bad. He’s not for you. If you read about his childhood, his father, and other things he did, you may understand him even if you don’t like him. If you want to try again, read ‘Bluebird.’ It shows his vulnerable side. He may not be a great writer, but he sure as hell isn’t a pretentious one.
I think you have Bukowski all wrong. I don’t think there are many authors quite as self aware as he was. Like, you honestly don’t think he was aware he was a misanthropic dirt bag? I mean yeah ok he treats women poorly, he treats people poorly, but that says nothing about his writing. It sounds like you just don’t like the subject matter, and are conflating Bukowski with the character Chinaski. He’s just a pretty raw and honest writer in my opinion. He tells entertaining stories and writes good poems. If nothing else it’s a great window into the time and space he was inhabiting.
I’m not a super-fan or anything and I consider it a dating red flag when dude bros claim him as their favorite (red flag as in a warning to check for other behavior, not that I would sincerely reject my dream guy because he likes Bukowski lmao) but I quite enjoy a lot of his poetry. I haven’t read Notes, though.
but like, Bluebird….
>there’s a bluebird in my heart thatwants to get outbut I’m too tough for him,I say, stay in there, I’m not goingto let anybody seeyou.there’s a bluebird in my heart thatwants to get outbut I pour whiskey on him and inhalecigarette smoke
>
>**(skipping ahead to the gut punch that makes me feel things)**
>
>there’s a bluebird in my heart that.wants to get out.but I’m too clever, I only let him out.at night sometimes.when everybody’s asleep..I say, I know that you’re there,.so don’t be .sad..then I put him back,but he’s singing a littlein there, I haven’t quite let himdieand we sleep together likethatwith oursecret pactand it’s nice enough tomake a manweep, but I don’tweep, doyou?
like ahhhhhhh can you get a better description of the pressures of conforming to society’s toxic masculinity?
edit: I don’t think I’ve ever read his prose, though.
His writing never interested me, but his POEMS! Shit, they’re great.
The only book of his I have is a collection of love poems. And they are really very good.
“I will remember the kisses
our lips raw with love
and how you gave me
everything you had
and how I
offered you what was left of
me,
and I will remember your small room
the feel of you
the light in the window
your records
your books
our morning coffee
our noons our nights
our bodies spilled together
sleeping
the tiny flowing currents
immediate and forever
your leg my leg
your arm my arm
your smile and the warmth
of you
who made me laugh
again.”
* I’m now aware that many of you are more successful writers than a guy that dedicated his life to it. This poem is painted on the wall of a bar in Amsterdam 50 years after it was written. That’s kinda cool. Bit of a legacy. Maybe one day your Reddit comments will be, but I doubt it. If you don’t like something, that’s fine, but if you weren’t so lifeless and ineffective you’d understand that it takes far more guts to try than it does to sit and criticize others that do from your keyboard.
I swear to god, “pretencious” has lost all meaning in this sub. It became a one size fit all for everything that people personally dislikes.
I don’t know, [Bluebird](https://allpoetry.com/poem/8509539-Bluebird-by-Charles-Bukowski) strikes me as a critique of toxic masculinity.
I think everybody gets is confusing misogyny and misanthropy. The dude loved women, but held the same contempt for them he seemed to hold for the entire human race, including (and perhaps especially) himself.
I can see not liking Bukowski. He’s abrasive, sordid, and seedy. But is he pretentious? That a strange and ill-fitting word to describe him or his works.
Say what you will about Bukowski as a person, but as an author he does what many other authors can’t, which is make you fucking feel something. His writing is so raw and honest that it’s hard not to. Farthest thing from pretentious in my opinion. Post office will forever be one of my favorite novels.
I know he’s a pretty good read, but God! Who’d want to be such an asshole?
You gotta read *Factotum* bro. He’s also a depressed alcoholic
Born like this
Into this
As the chalk faces smile
As Mrs. Death laughs
As the elevators break
As political landscapes dissolve
As the supermarket bag boy holds a college degree
As the oily fish spit out their oily prey
As the sun is masked
We are
Born like this
Into this
Into these carefully mad wars
Into the sight of broken factory windows of emptiness
Into bars where people no longer speak to each other
Into fist fights that end as shootings and knifings
Born into this
Into hospitals which are so expensive that it’s cheaper to die
Into lawyers who charge so much it’s cheaper to plead guilty
Into a country where the jails are full and the madhouses closed
Into a place where the masses elevate fools into rich heroes
Born into this
Walking and living through this
Dying because of this
Muted because of this
Castrated
Debauched
Disinherited
Because of this
Fooled by this
Used by this
Pissed on by this
Made crazy and sick by this
Made violent
Made inhuman
By this
The heart is blackened
The fingers reach for the throat
The gun
The knife
The bomb
The fingers reach toward an unresponsive god
The fingers reach for the bottle
The pill
The powder
We are born into this sorrowful deadliness
We are born into a government 60 years in debt
That soon will be unable to even pay the interest on that debt
And the banks will burn
Money will be useless
There will be open and unpunished murder in the streets
It will be guns and roving mobs
Land will be useless
Food will become a diminishing return
Nuclear power will be taken over by the many
Explosions will continually shake the earth
Radiated robot men will stalk each other
The rich and the chosen will watch from space platforms
Dante’s Inferno will be made to look like a children’s playground
The sun will not be seen and it will always be night
Trees will die
All vegetation will die
Radiated men will eat the flesh of radiated men
The sea will be poisoned
The lakes and rivers will vanish
Rain will be the new gold
The rotting bodies of men and animals will stink in the dark wind
The last few survivors will be overtaken by new and hideous diseases
And the space platforms will be destroyed by attrition
The petering out of supplies
The natural effect of general decay
And there will be the most beautiful silence never heard
Born out of that.
The sun still hidden there
Awaiting the next chapter.
Personally, I think his novels are a slag. Even the “better” ones. But his poetry? God damn. I find he has self-victimizing misogynistic tendencies, mainly seeming to stem from his misanthropy. This poem forever lives in my brain as his best work, but I believe it shows him to be capable of seeing women as complete people.
Eulogy To A Hell Of A Dame
some dogs who sleep At night
must dream of bones
and I remember your bones
in flesh
and best
in that dark green dress
and those high-heeled bright
black shoes,
you always cursed when you drank,
your hair coming down you
wanted to explode out of
what was holding you:
rotten memories of a
rotten
past, and
you finally got
out
by dying,
leaving me with the
rotten
present;
you’ve been dead
28 years
yet I remember you
better than any of
the rest;
you were the only one
who understood
the futility of the
arrangement of
life;
all the others were only
displeased with
trivial segments,
carped
nonsensically about
nonsense;
Jane, you were
killed by
knowing too much.
here’s a drink
to your bones
that
this dog
still
dreams about.
This post is completely overrated
Man I know he’s a pretty good read but god who’d wanna be just like bukowski.
ham on rye and post office are two books i love. hes not for everyone and i underatand this.
to each their own
He paints a sad existence always on the fringe of society.
That’s just like your opinion man.
Its a lot. It is seemingly honest though. That’s something more rare than astatine. How can someone really examine themselves without honesty? From others and oneself. I mean, yeah, he said the things he thought and did, you said, ‘man, thats fucked up – not me – dont be like this.’ Thats a gift in itself. He’s overhyped, but his poetry is something that still gives me the warmth of a double shot of bourbon. One that makes you choke and sputter upon consumption with its particular sweet and woodsy, caustic twang, and, when it really works, with luck, maybe one nanoliter of that honey-sweet, astringent, bourbon warmth makes it to that tiny part of the brain people call a heart without dimming and evaporating, or at least, not so quickly. Uglyness is important.
i loved Women when i read it in college, as a 21 year old woman.
there was so much fear and reverence in his words, the mystery of the other sex.
he was not a good man, he came from abuse and brokenness – he lived as an abusive broken man, but he also knew how to write about his innermost heart.
he was an alcoholic, who was also still a scared boy, an angry man – he was honest in a gross way, while living in a gross world.
yep.
“your life is your life
don’t let it be clubbed into dank submission.
be on the watch.
there are ways out.
there is light somewhere.
it may not be much light but
it beats the darkness.
be on the watch.
the gods will offer you chances.
know them.
take them.
you can’t beat death but
you can beat death in life, sometimes.
and the more often you learn to do it,
the more light there will be.
your life is your life.
know it while you have it.
you are marvelous
the gods wait to delight
in you.”
“If you’re going to try, go all the way.
Otherwise, don’t even start.
If you’re going to try, go all the way.
This could mean losing girlfriends, wives, relatives, jobs and maybe even your mind.
It could mean not eating for three or four days.
It could mean freezing on a park bench.
It could mean jail.
It could mean derision, mockery, isolation.
Isolation is the gift.
All the others are a test of your endurance, of how much you really want to do it.
And, you’ll do it, despite rejection and the worst odds.
And it will be better than anything else you can imagine.
If you’re going to try, go all the way.
There is no other feeling like that.
You will be alone with the gods, and the nights will flame with fire.
DO IT. DO IT. DO IT. All the way
You will ride life straight to perfect laughter. It’s the only good fight there is.”
This is some fire 🔥 work..! Lights up my soul so much that it would diminish a million suns put together in comparison!
“Some people like this guy, but lemme tell you, I read one book he wrote once and I’m here to tell you, he seemed a bit unpleasant”